Fetlife: Not Consent Counts, but Convictions Count, eh?
Not that this quote isn't a blog entry in itself, but....
The Fetlife Carebears have at last spoken on the thread naming abusers (by their fetlife handles, mind) by emailing yandy, who started it off:
“We really love that you are presenting an opportunity to FetLife members to anonymously tell their stories in “Confessions: TRIGGER WARNING”. We’ve thought from the beginning that allowing people to present their stories of experiencing non-consensual activities was an important thing to allow on FetLife, and even wrote a clause into the Terms of Use to specifically state that real rape (emphasis added) could be discussed from a therapeutic perspective. Registered sex offenders convicted of sexual violence and/or non-consensual sexual offenses are not permitted to have accounts on FetLife. We’re also trying to work with the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom on their “Consent Counts” project, which is helping to tackle the problem of sexual abuse & intimate partner violence in the kinky community. In short, if someone is convicted of non-consensual activities in the scene, we’ll kick them off and we should be warning people about them!
However, we also do not allow accusations of criminal conduct when a conviction has not happened. Unfortunately, many of the posts in this thread are doing just that. We’d like to give you the opportunity to continue this great service to the community in this way. We’ll delete all the comments that name names. If you can anonymize any accusations that come in from now on, we’ll allow the thread to stay open. If not, we’ll have to delete the thread completely. We hope it doesn’t come to that – we’d really hate to do that – and we hope that we can come up with a way to keep this going in a way that helps everyone.”
Coming on the tail of having just signed on with NCSF’s “Consent Counts” program, this makes several statements that I find hugely problematic-
-abuse only counts if the abuser is convicted
-abuse only counts if you went to the police (not always safe for people)
-even if your abuser is a serial offender, you are not allowed to name them on Fetlife
-we want to ‘help everyone” and in the interest of that we’re going to ignore the way the confessions thread has led to conversations, accountability, and an amazing lack of interpersonal drama because we’re afraid of… something
I am really disappointed. That thread proved that people could anonymously call people out even if there was a social power disparity, and the person called out could respond respectfully and express their desire to do better… without silencing anyone. I think rumors and whispers in person that you may or may not hear DOESN’T WORK. It didn’t work for me, it hasn’t worked for multiple other people. I’m furious to know that Fetlife feels that unless you go to the cops AND GET A CONVICTION your experience should be kept vague and therefore useless to future potential victims.
Keep in mind that this TOS policy means that people who engage in consensual BDSM in states where that is still illegal (like MA) or has photos of acts that are illegal (like labia piercing photos are illegal in the UK) should be banned, because to admit to engaging in these activities is to accuse someone of a criminal act. If this pisses you off too, please vote in the “Let Us Name Our Abusers” thread on Fetlife so we can underline why this is important.
I mean, c’mon, Fetlife. Really?
yandy’s response:
You say there’s a clause in the terms of use permitting the discussion of “real rape” from a “therapeutic perspective.” Could you point me to where that clause can be found, and also explain to me your definition of “real rape”?
I’m also curious to know the nature of the work you are doing with the NCSF’s Consent Counts project and how you are incorporating it into your business practices.
Finally, the accusations in many of the posts you deleted, due to a criminal justice system that doesn’t work in favor of people like us, are not actually against the law, and most of the ones that are actually against the letter of the law could never reach a prosecution, since juries are statistically biased against cases of sexual assault that do not fit the culturally embedded narrative of “stranger rape,” and so the likelihood of any of the cases that even legally constitute sexual assault ending in a conviction is about one in sixteen. (see http://www.rainn.org/statistics) This means that the rule against discussing accusations of nonconsensual conduct absent criminal conviction is inherently biased and silencing to a vast majority of people who have experienced trauma.
yandy
In response to having their heartfelt stories, stories it took guts and challenging fear to write, particularly when not anonymous, deleted by Fetlife who is trying to “take care of everyone”:
“It’s like a physical punch to the gut that my post got deleted.”
“I’m glad I saved my OP, because I will be posting it elsewhere, and the carebears can just fuck right off.”
“I am more than a little pissed at their stance on this, and even their wording is obnoxiously fake with understanding. I am asking anyone who supports the website to not renew their support until the caretakes start actually taking care of the users and not just the website.”
“I’m just going to point out, for the record, that many consensual things that we do are illegal, and talking about them are “accusations of criminal conduct.” So if I say that @dude once hit me with a stick at @otherdude’s house at a party, which was perfectly consensual, and the type of information that’s all over FetLife, that isn’t deleted. But if I said that someone did it non consensually (which is not true, it’s just for the sake of the example) that’s deleteable? The difference doesn’t seem to be in the criminal conduct on the players’ parts, but the likelihood of FL getting sued.”
“I had people thank me for talking about my experiences – some of them had experienced the same (directly or not) but didn’t feel open to talking about it. And not all my names were “this person raped me”; my posts, and many others I saw, detailed what actually happened and why we felt it was terrible and boundary-breaking.
Wow. Thanks Fetlife. That whole thing about NCSF et al, just words huh?”
“Also, I’d just like to point out that while I can’t say “@so-and-so raped me”, @so-and-so is very much allowed to brag about raping me and discuss in detail how hot it was. And before you brush that off with, “But no one would want to admit to a crime!” let me ask you if you’ve been in any of the more marginal and disturbing rape and incest ‘fantasy’ groups on FL recently. Plenty of freaks out there will risk talking about the shit they’ve done just because it gets them off (and possibly also because they’re beyond the statute of limitations.)
So, hey carebears, if you’re going to ban talking about actual sexual abuse on here, how about you ban the abusers from talking about it too?”
Again, please consider voting on the ”Let Us Name Our Abusers” thread so we can tell Fetlife that this is a shitty way for them to show they’re committed to consent. Also, feel free to email Fetlife’s caretakers via caretakers at fetlife.com, tweet @Fetlife, email the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom’s Consent Culture director Judy Guerin by emailing judy at ncsfreedom.org , tweet your concerns to @NCSF or via their Fetlife group. Let Fetlife know their TOS actively promotes a less safe community, and tell NCSF that having such an ally on Consent Counts doesn’t look so hot.
Honestly, I can see their side on this.
The kink community does not have any sort of governing body. There’s no way to convict someone as an abuser within the community. It all comes down to he/she/they-said from both sides.
Imagine that Fetlife allows anyone to name anyone as an abuser. Think about how this plays out over time. Every psycho ex with an ax to grind will start declaring their hated former partners to be abusers. Now, what happens to the accused? Is there a mechanism in place for them to defend themselves? Is there any way that these don’t just turn into ugly public spats?
Plus, it’s not hard to imagine Fetlife being sued after someone posts that JoeBobDomlyDom is an abuser. The story might be true. It might be made up. It probably will be somewhere in between, with a lot of misunderstanding.
Unfortunately, there are no good answers here. I’m pretty sure that using Fetlife as a platform for flinging around accusations is a pretty bad one, though.
The bottom line, though, is that it’s not automatically abuse just because one partner asserts that it is. These are huge grey area, and Fetlife isn’t really set up to be a court of kink.
This topic was already covered somewhat here: http://www.consentculture.com/2012/02/guest-post-consent-and-the-derail-of-false-accusations
If Fetlife is concerned about the legality, a lot of what goes up on that site would be suspect under the law. They do seem to pick and choose.
And the fact is, that thread had a good system in place- and people responded REALLY WELL to being held accountable. If we are unable or unwilling to self-police, and we need a whole organization to help us deal with the police (which is primarily NCSF’s work as far as I can tell) we have a pretty serious problem.
And so they turn into ugly public spats? So what? Facebook and Twitter don’t protect you from that. I don’t see what Fetlife is so worried about. They can’t be held accountable, as far as I know.
actually FL could be held accountable if the accusation is false for it is FL that is the Publisher of the accusation, so FL could then be sued for character degradation and libel (the published form of slander). So unless there is an actual way to prove the guilt of the accused FL is making the wise choice. I don’t like the fact that there are those out there who may not be punished for their crimes but I also WILL NOT tolerate the innocent being bashed, so FL is doing nothing more that following the spirit of the law, innocent until proven guilty
P.S.
For those of you out there who have been raped I am terribly sorry that some disgusting freak would do that to some one. With that said if you have been raped I encourage you to go through the proper channels I would love nothing more to see the bastards rot in a cell.
As is stated here quite a lot – people who have been accussed have their own right to come and share their side as well – “the person called out could respond respectfully and express their desire to do better… without silencing anyone.” – also, they were ONLY giving the fetlife name, not their REAL name.
Most BDSM’ers are pretty thoughtful, communicative types being that our play is so based on it and on responsibility. It’s pretty easy to see through the infinitesimally tiny percentage of BDSM folk who would publicly defile someone because they are, as you say, a “psycho ex”.
There are such few cases of “psycho ex’s” at all, and especially in the BDSM community, that its fairly absurd to say that no one should talk about their legitimate concerns, fear, trauma, because of that tiny percentage…In fact, one of the main points of abuse compared to consent is the denial of the issue. Perhaps if this is a major issue, being called out on things you (or whoever) will not acknowledge – there is abuse.
Excellent article here:
http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2011/08/02/thinking-more-clearly-about-bdsm-versus-abuse/
I am really pleased to see this movement on this set of crucial issues!
Thank you.
its their site… they may choose their own policies
they have decided to avoid getting involved with issues defamation and slander
if you don’t like their rules vote with your two feet , go start out own social networking site
now next last time I checked NCSFs “Consent Counts” was about changin laws to allow consensual BDSM activities.. not about improving culture of consent in the scene
you have just dismissed country arguments in a “I disagree with you do you dont matter attitude” so much for active listening , you have moved into a rabid ranter realm of Internet ..
“now next last time I checked NCSFs “Consent Counts” was about changin laws to allow consensual BDSM activities.. not about improving culture of consent in the scene”
I’m so glad you said that, because that was my complaint about NCSF in the previous post’s comments!
On the idea that online defamation/slander lawsuits are A Thing to worry about- http://www.reputationhawk.com/onlinedefamation.html
For good or ill, it’s very difficult to pursue a lawsuit against online slander for multiple reasons- and, more to the point, Fetlife would be unlikely to need to worry as they’re hosting content, not producing it.
And the argument “don’t like it, make your own” is a derailing for dummies technique.
You really need to think about this from more than your personal perspective….
“A Texas judge ordered news Web site Topix.com on Feb. 5, 2009 to comply with a subpoena to identify 178 anonymous commenters in an online forum who allegedly defamed a Texas attorney and his wife, both of whom were charged in April 2008 with aggravated sexual assault of a former client.”
and…
On March 30, 2006, the clerk of courts for Winnebago County, Wis., Diane Fremgen, filed a lawsuit against Web-site operator Dennis Payne, among others, for libel after anonymous users posted two sexually explicit comments about Fremgen. In addition to asking for monetary and punitive damages, Fremgen sought an injunction to remove the content and temporarily shut down the site.
The same day, Fond du Lac County Circuit Court Judge Robert Wirtz ordered Payne to “suspend all operations and publication of the website … until further order” because “failure to temporarily restrain the Defendants (Payne) from continuing the website … would continue to cause [Fremgen] irreparable injury to reputation” and that “no other suitable relief is available.”
Fetlife is not a group therapy site, it is a social networking site, and vulnerable to litagation. If they changed their policy the way you suggest the potential liability could put the site out of business.
Unless things are significantly different south of the border than north, I’m going to side with FL on this one. Yes, they, as the service provider, are open to charges of publishing defamation in the form of libel and can be held criminally/civilly responsible by the courts.
On the matter of “outing” alleged abusers publicly: what ever happened to the idea of innocent until proven guilty? Last time I checked, both north and south of the border, we had laws that, while not perfectly applied, were in place to allow people to press charges, for the accused to have their day in court, and for a judge or jury to decide which side was telling the truth in a matter.
Perhaps we’d all like to return to the witch hunts or enact vigilante justice to ensure that every “bad person” get’s crucified on suspicions alone?? The system isn’t perfect: good people will be convicted and bad people will go free. But I’d rather have that system than one that would tar an feather everyone with no recourse to the courts. Got a problem: go to the police, a therapist, a hospital. Just don’t publicly malign people and expect to not pay a price.
Kat, I have a feeling when you finished writing your comment here you felt proud of yourself and thought ya that makes sense, and fair. It seemed like you had a sense of pride at the end for your 2 cents.
Do you realize that you are referring to women being raped? I don’t believe that the names should be publicly laid out but if there is any question as to whether someone is “really being raped” or I guess “acting” it should NOT be posted for viewing. Did you see any of the rape videos???? Well Did You? Because I logged in for the first time and for 2 minutes I watched a girl being raped. There was NO question this was real.
I was sick to my stomach, I wanted to scream, to cry, I had to go for a run. The world sickens me. When ten men rape you, your daughter, or your grand daughter and post it on the internet should we all say, well I think she might me lying, these guys are all innocent until proven guilty.
I find many people roaming around FL saying oh this isnt a lifestyle. They don’t wanna be involved in the “community”. FL is not the forum for these kind of accusations. That’s what community is for. To support the abused and the police the abusers.
I guess its ok to say you don’t like the community and it’s not a lifestyle. Until someone gets hurt and thier running around looking for a place to get support. These people should get involved in the local ommunity and go to local events so they can be safe.
community is biased towards the popular kids. What happens when a community leader is the abuser (as is my experience)?
I think the only effective way to deal with abuse is to report it to the authorities. If not the police, go to a victim services advocate and report it. I understand the reasons people don’t report abuse – our 2008 Violence & Discrimination survey found that 90% didn’t report violence committed against them. They’re afraid of further harassment, being outed, losing their job, losing child custody. Some people tried but weren’t taken seriously by the police, which is horrible. https://ncsfreedom.org/images/stories/pdfs/BDSM_Survey/2008_bdsm_survey_analysis_final.pdf
But we can’t let 9 out of 10 assaults continue to go unreported and unchecked. At the annual NCSF Coalition Partner meeting this past weekend, we discussed how to build on the success of our new victims guide “In the Aftermath” which is designed to help people understand the process of reporting violence, what their options are, and resources for helping them. https://ncsfreedom.org/images/stories/pdfs/Consent%20Counts/CC%20Doc/NCSF_Aftermath_21feb12_WEB.pdf
There are already a number of anti-violence and rape crisis line that are eager to assist BDSM practitioners. But we’d like to see a network of victims advocates who are trained to understand BDSM and to help our community directly. We are an underserved population, and we haven’t really tapped the potential that exists in working with the established network. I do think that it would do the most good for the most people to put our efforts into that rather than exposing abusers one at a time in a forum that many people don’t/won’t/can’t have access to.
Susan:
“They’re afraid of further harassment, being outed, losing their job, losing child custody. Some people tried but weren’t taken seriously by the police, which is horrible.”
And honestly? Rightfully so, having just gone through this in real life with someone close to me, where the police proceeded to:
-put her children at risk
-put her at further risk
-did not arrest her rapist (who still legally has access to her home and children)
-did not take her seriously
-told her it was her fault repeatedly
etc.
Reporting does not = any sort of action on the part of the police even in the best most ideal of cases around rape/assault. Hoping that suddenly that will turn around is expecting an awful lot from both the victims who get put through the mill and from the police who do not get penalized for being jackasses through the process. I think that informing local events of the situation so they could make their own decision of COURSE was more effective than going to the police, who had her sit in her dirty clothes for almost 16 hours before they let her get a rape kit done. To suggest that localized, community-centric actions should be somehow replaced by the justice system is problematic in many ways.
Fetlife is a huge hub for local communities. Will it cover every single person? No. But it covers a lot more people and has more impact that hoping that maybe the police will actually push for prosecution this time. I think it’s great that you want to get the police to understand BDSM and also take rape/abuse/domestic violence more seriously, but that is a really long time in coming, and cannot be the only place energy gets put if we intend to keep our communities safe.
Support is necessary to move past the dark spots in life. I know that flnieeg too. You have support IRL and online. You have people who adore you and love you just for being who you are. You’ve done so much for me emotionally….I hope you know I am always here for you too.
You seem to believe that violent BDSM is only illegal in some states and countries. It is illegal in the whole of the United States. Consent has been universally rejected as a defense by the courts. Some states allow for consent is there is no serious injury. Courts have universally held in the US that BDSM activities constitute serious injury. Austria, Germany, Norway, and Sweden are the only Western countries where BDSM is unambiguously legal and consent is a clearly accepted defense. There are also a handful of countries, like France and Canada, where it is ostensibly legal to some degree but it remains a huge grey area.
I admire what you do but you’re doing our cause great harm when you propagate common falsehoods. Not only do you encourage people to continue holding false beliefs but it creates doubts about the accuracy of your knowledge and claims.
So, much better to not involve the police *or* deal with it within the community? Abuse in BDSM happens. If dealing with it online is too risky, in person is too biased, and via police is harmful, what do you suggest?
If “the cause” involves silencing victims and avoiding rapists having accountability, it’s not my cause. Sorry.
Ben, you are oversimplifying. There is no appellate law which accepts consent as a defense to criminal assault, as NCSF keeps reminding us, and this impacts how BDSM is viewed in family court and by employers. However, prosecutors are not really confident that it would stay that way if a case were brought today, and they’ve studiously avoided prosecutions where the top(s) and bottom(s) agree that all acts were consensual. In every prosecution arising from BDSM that I’m aware of since Paddleboro in 1990, the prosecution has pleaded and attempted to prove the absence of consent, except where the acts constitute practicing surgery without a license (the Virginia castration cases are what I’m thinking of here.)
The prosecutions of Hauff, Longoria, Marcus, Bagley, Senter, Ball and several others, whether they resulted in convictions or acquittals, have had as the core of the case the absence of consent.
You said to Kitty that she shouldnt’ “propogate common falsehoods.” You shouldn’t either: you’ve implied, if not stated, that people can be prosecuted just for doing consensual BDSM in the US. That’s far from unambigously true, and if it were, then Senter, for example, would have been convicted, as it was uncontested that he had done about a dozen BDSM scenes with the complainant. In fact, like sodomy laws before Lawrence, while the appellate law is clear, the culture has moved so much that prosecutors are simply not going to create a test case. You _will_not_see_ a prosecution for BDSM in the US where the bottom is prepared to say from day one, “everything we did was consensual,” unless the scene involved lopping off body parts. So in that sense, it is entirely a grey area in the US.
There are lots of reasons why the criminal justice system doesn’t work for cases arising from BDSM communities, but the whole “what we do is criminal” thing is a pretty minor factor, and statements about the application of criminal assault statutes to BDSM should be made by people who know that they’re talking about.
So Thomas, what you are saying is that where state law is concerned, there is no such thing as consensual BDSM?
I’m not into BDSM, but I thought America made it clear they did not want bible thumpers dictating to the rest of us how to live.
I’m late to the party, but quick correction — Paddleboro was 2000.
You’re totally right! I thought it happened when I was 18, but it was a couple years before.
Said with earnest love, I think you are wound up and overreacting. You are reading things into my comments that I didn’t even imply. I sincerely apologize if I unintentionally triggered you or somehow ignorantly including phrasing in my comments that reminds you of opponents. That was not at all my intent and I hope you can understand that.
I never said anything at all about not involving the police or dealing with it in the community. My point was simply that you are helping to perpetuate urban myths about legality in our community and the negative impact that has on our cause. Reinforcing mythical notions from your position of leadership is damaging to your listeners and your reputation.
I share your concerns about abuse. I share your concerns about the lack of safe space. That is why I even bothered to say anything at all. I am not saying we shouldn’t deal with these issues and push for change within the community and broader society. I strongly believe we should. I just think we shouldn’t rely on myths and half truths to do it and that we should call out such misguided notions to keep us firmly on the ground of honesty and truth.
It is my earnest hope that this clarifies my position and concerns. Again I truly apologize if I ignorantly or unintentionally triggered or upset you.
Where did I say bdsm is legal anyway? I say that’s why people don’t involve the police in fact, because it’s legally assault and people worry their local dungeons could get closed down. So they promote ” keeping it in the family”. That’s a problem, right?
“consensual BDSM in states where that is still illegal (like MA)”
It’s illegal in all states. That is akin to saying “trafficking heroin in states where that is still illegal.” It creates the clear implication and feeds the common myth that it is only illegal in some states and that it is based on outdated laws which is completely false. It is illegal in every state and they are modern assault and DV statutes. Some localities tolerate it or just flaunt state law but it is fully 100% illegal with every single court case rejecting consent as a defense and every single court case holding it is serious injury under the law.
Yes it is a severe problem that people have this insular KITF attitude. Blaming it on the state of the law is a bit misguided. That may be an excuse but it is not the reason. You see the exact same sort of pattern in subcultures across the board. What to do to fix it? Encourage people to use available support resources. Defend their right to leave bad situations and get help. Encourage people to go to the police. Defend their right to prosecute their abusers and counter arguments of community harm. Encourage people to form a support network of friends. Defend their right to have safe spaces and interpersonal encouragement.
Okay, so do you have an actual solution? How do you suggest we change anything if speaking out is so problematic?
I was raped by someone in the scene, one of those situations where there’s no way law enforcement would be on my side (because it typically doesn’t recognize a withdrawal of consent during sex as sexual assault). Does this mean I shouldn’t tell others of my experience so they can avoid such things, and to raise awareness of these issues generally? Are you suggesting that those of us who’ve experienced such things just be quiet about them?
[...] about, by the way, have been these two Pervocracy posts (both trigger-tastic, by the way,) that terrible shitstorm on FetLife, and – the thing which spurred me to write what I’m currently writing – this [...]
A community is only a real community if you can openly communicate events that happen within it. It’s that simple. If you’re barred from that, you don’t have a community.
Well, FL is popular because it’s a social networking site, so it’s our right to use that JB’s successful business model for the purpose we see fit despite any risk to JB, JB’s property, or the millions of people who receive benefit from FL as a social networking site.
Also, please ignore the cases where sites were shut down.
Also, please ignore that people whose jobs and family depend on their anonymity on FL could suddenly be outed by an abuser who is lashing out (see the Topix case mentioned above…cases I too mentioned in a thread on FL that were ignored). This isn’t some wild hypothetical; some of my friends in particularly precarious positions (e.g. a DA and someone involved in custody hearings) have left FL because of FL-related outings.
Also, please ignore all the abusers who ‘reacted well’ are mostly well meaning individuals who felt terrible they’d hurt someone, rather than serial predators who know what they’re doing is wrong and don’t care.
Also, please don’t think about the fact that those who hurt people and don’t care (or enjoy it) are rather likely to cause as much pain as possible to everyone in the vicinity. If their identities are already known, if their crimes are known in public, they have nothing to lose by revealing everyone else’s identity or subpoenaing FL users’ ISPs.
Libel depends on the truth. If someone accuses someone of rape/abuse/violation at a party – “harmlessly, for the benefit of all, and with no intent to follow through with pressing charges” – and the accused doesn’t like his name being spread around in connection with a crime or he thinks the accusation was unfair, he can file a libel suit. And that means anyone who said a bad word about the abuser on FL and anyone who was at that play party now will have their legal name connected to objectional sexual activities in court documents. ….And that’s the difference between someone saying they were hit by a stick illegally but consensually versus someone saying they were assaulted – one is far more likely to end up in police reports and court records, and far more likely to put the wider user base at risk.
Boohoo you say? It’s nothing compared to nonconsensual touching? In some instances you may be right, but it’s still not “nothing” and you ARE victimizing others who might’ve done nothing wrong. FL is at risk, peoples’ livelihood and children are at risk, and peoples’ ability to be sexual on their own terms instead of an overly puritanical society’s terms are at risk.
I think it’s fine if you choose to disagree with FL’s decision, but imply they’re bad people for protecting themselves and to make them out as bad as the people who committed crimes against you? Or to say John Baku is obligated to spend thousands or tens of thousands of dollars on lawyers so he don’t have to worry about the repercussions of your decision about he should do with his site? Give me a fucking break.
I am speaking as someone who helped recover the deleted posts, who watched the Unicorn thread with a great deal of empathy towards others who related their stories, as a woman who has been violated as well as put in non-consensual situations that were neither safe or sane, as someone who has been in multiple abusive relationships, as someone who did cross someone’s boundaries once unknowingly and swiftly apologized upon finding out (after sensing something was wrong) and did all I could to make amends with the person I violated.
So you can make me out to be some monster like anyone who disagrees, but until you admit that a reasonable person who is educated about rape culture and the systemic abuse of victims can disagree that you are entitled to make John Baku do as you please, then I don’t think there is room for discussion. You won’t make headway with FL and you won’t make headway with anyone who can see farther than their own interests.
FL already provides many spaces where victims can get support. If you do not want to make your own space where abusers can be named and shamed, then at least pay for the lawyers that John Baku would need to make sure he is doing this in a way that protects not only himself and FL but also the many people and customers who would be collateral damage from an accusation gone wrong. But really, I can’t see a way to protect innocent users from potentially being collateral damage in such a case. And if your response to people losing their jobs and children is “fuck you, it’s nothing like being raped”? Well, fuck you back.
Lastly, my community actively deals with people accused of consent violations and assault. This happens among the leaders of the community, among the accuser and the accused, and among any witnesses to the event. We have banned abusers from venues and events based on this. Likewise, we have come up with at least one instance where the accuser was clearly lying based on witnesses and hard evidence that he could not be where she claimed he was (I don’t think this is common nor do I think it’s an argument not to call out abusers, but I do want to say that false accusations are not always a victimless crime or “no big deal”. In this case it happened to a man on disability who was bipolar, severely depressed, had a history of abuse and suicide attempts, and was just starting to try to have relationships after a partner swindled him out of the little money he had. After proving he could not have done what was said (and after we found out she had a pattern of doing this whenever relationships ended), we haven’t heard from him for 6 months other than a friend who reported it had taken a big toll and he wasn’t doing well. In this case, the accused was the abused.)
In other words, I DO think the community should self-police, but I don’t think anonymous accusations on FL forums are the most productive way to keep abusers out of events or to separate predators from those who fuck up once, unintentionally, based on a misunderstanding, and hope to never do so again. What might be more helpful than forcing this role on FL, is creating resources for communities that help them deal with accusations, then actively try to get communities to participate. In my view it is the communities who protect rapists and abusers but claim to offer safety that are negligent, not some glorified internet forum. And if the popular kids are the ones that are accused? I truly regret I don’t have immediate solutions. It’s kind of like what do you do when the police are the accused? If predators are key figures in the scene they should absolutely be found out and ostracized, but even with naming them on FL you are not going to stop an event host from doing his thing. I guess our community is lucky in that I haven’t heard any accusations toward our community leaders (they are mostly partnered homoflexible women who do very little pickup play, which helps), and we have taken all accusations I’m aware of very seriously by banning or taking other action against the accused.
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To the ignorant douchebag with the “innocent til proven guilty” mantra: anyone is allowed to accuse anyone of anything (as long as it is true, or as long as the accused is not willing to file slander/libel charges). Even the gov doesn’t treat someone as innocent until proven guilty, unless you consider being jailed during trial or publicly prosecuted as being treated like they are innocent. With the pathetic conviction rates of rapists and predators, conviction is next to meaningless in terms of the truth, and totally meaningless for your average private citizen or forum poster. Seriously, if you’re an adult, I can’t imagine how you possibly have a 2nd-grade understanding of that. Do you also repeat “it’s a free country” when breaking the law?
-People were asking for NON-anonymous naming. Or, at least, it’ll be as anonymous for the accuser as it is for the accused.
-Fetlife is not just a forum. It’s a place people find out about workshops. It’s where they discover new parties. And new lovers. Therefore, it is a community space, even if it’s an online one. There are responsibilities involved with that. If those responsibilities are not ones FL wants to take on, then they should make it really clear that it’s not necessarily a safe space.
-What is your self-policing strategy, then? Please offer one. I’d love to hear it. What would be an effective method of preventing people known to be rapists in real life from using Fetlife and other such places to meet new victims? How do we hold those people accountable? What about if they move to a new town? It’s not our problem anymore?
-If you haven’t seen the tons and tons of resources I’ve already compiled I really don’t know what to tell you.
Kitty
I’m just curious, how does naming names on a Kink website prevent abuse?
I can only speak for myself but it seems that naming names without due process could cause not only Fetlife but the community as a whole a lot of problems, most that will take costly legal actions to solve.
As someone in social media marketing- you know what’s the most effective way of getting your voice heard and respected by big companies/people with power online? Publicly asked questions and requests for accountability. You know what doesn’t work? Writing letters privately.
I really don’t see a) what’s this “due process” everyone keeps talking about. Do you mean the court system? Don’t make me laugh- there’s a local rapist who went to court and he’s still welcome in the local community. Where’s the due process there? and b) what’s so scary about having your ONLINE HANDLE forced to take accountability for bad behaviour.
[...] have a policy which silences victims and survivors of abuse. There is more info on Consent Culture here and a wider discussion of the issue on Yes Means Yes (check out all seven parts). I’m leaving [...]
Speak out. Never stay silent. Our voice is the only thing we have.
As for the law, I’m with Kitty. Don’t make me laugh. 97% of rapists walk free. Judges have to tell the jury “you cannot convict this man if he thought it was consensual.”
Almost one admits to rape. Unless, of course, you describe the events and don’t use the R word. Then about one in eight will admit to rape. Just as long as you don’t call it rape.
Where there are trials where they are not allowed to say the words “sexual assault” or “rape,” they have to say “sex.” innocent until proven guilty? That is why 97% of rapists walk free. That is why they rape again and again. Average rapist will rate six different women.
If we don’t take care of this as a community, the problem will not be fixed. The law is decades behind us in consent. Decades. Not to mention, that if by some miracle our is one of the 14% that actually goes to trial, our lifestyle would be on trial. Not the rapist.
This is in our hands now.
To CL’s point, I want to say thank you for articulating that so clearly.
To O. M. Grey’s point, namely the “This is in our hands now” ending, we exist in a society under rule of law, where vigilante justice has rightly been extinguished. Laws are not perfect, and certainly enforcement is less so’ however, the way one goes about rectifying this is to point out the numerous and flagrant flaws in the law, in the open public forums that kitty describes. Hold lawmakers, judges, governments, and the system itself accountable and beat down the doors of your Congressman to fix them. The public’s job is to call out injustice when it is spotted, actively work to correct it, and look out for one another.
To Lori’s point, I think that’s a perfectly legitimate question: what real (not theoretical, or emotional) good would the kind of calling out that the OP and kitty / O. M. Grey are advocating do? Would he suddenly not be allowed into clubs nationwide because someone accused him of rape on Fetlife? No. Would he be forbidden from going to local munches, happy hours, or parties because he’s on a Fetlife-maintained Flag list? No. Would s/he not simply make another profile on one of a hundred other dating sites, or more simply, a New Username, after the great outing has occurred? Probably.
So let’s work at this from a result-driven perspective: if the goal is to reduce the risk of recidivism and repeat offenses, enhance the safety of the public at large, and let’s keep one in here, punish in the most severe way possible the offender for his/er wrongdoing, then the solution is clear.
You must use the courts that you hate and fear, because they’re the only ones with the power to do it.
I disagree that the only option is to use “the master’s tools”. Community activism and calling out of behaviours, as well as rehabilitation, is completely possibly outside of that system- see “The Revolution Starts at Home”.
[...] discussed in more detail by Thomas Millar and Kitty Stryker, in early 2012, a group of young, queer kinksters in NYC started a series of discussion threads on [...]